Alone in the Arctic: How it Reframed Fatherhood, Faith, & Fear for Timber Cleghorn
About this Episode
Ever wonder how being alone in the wilderness impacts your faith, your views on fatherhood, and how you define fear? On this episode of The Brainy Moms Podcast, Dr. Amy and Sandy unpack all of that with Timber Cleghorn–humanitarian aid worker, survivalist, and cast member on Season 9 of Alone. Timber shares lessons from a life that spans an off-grid childhood, years in conflict zones, and 83 days alone in the Arctic Circle on the show. The result is a disarmingly honest look at fear, faith, and the daily choices that turn hardship into wisdom.
Timber shares how producers of Alone protect the true experiment—extreme isolation—forcing contestants to face themselves without distraction. In that silence, he used scripture to speaking both fear and gratitude out loud to steady his spirit. From missing a moose with millions watching to withstanding online backlash for expressing his faith, he explains how to loosen your shoulders, learn what you can, and take the next right step. Success may be fleeting, but satisfaction can be solid when your identity isn’t riding on outcomes.
We also go deep on parenting. Timber and his wife are raising three kids while dialing back overseas work, breaking cycles of fear-based decisions, and centering kindness as the family’s North Star. He tells a revealing story about choosing connection over performance. We talk about giving children silence, autonomy, and wonder; modeling a beautiful life with God rather than forcing belief; and how conviction beats confidence when facing real-world challenges, including their toddler’s developmental needs.
If you’re curious about resilience, gratitude, and practical ways to bring wildness home—without making your kids replicas of you—this conversation delivers. Expect thoughtful insights on echo chambers, empathy, failure, and why choosing kindness at any scale matters.
This episode is different from any we’ve done in all six seasons so far. In a conversation among parents, we laugh, we cry, we share our faith, and we laugh some more. It’s an hour and fifteen minutes of pure joy. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs courage today, and leave a review telling us where you’re practicing conviction over confidence right now.
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About Timber
Timber Cleghorn is a humanitarian aid worker and survivalist. He grew up off the grid as one of 11 homeschooled siblings. He’s worked his way through the complexities of learning the modern world and settled into a lifestyle of international aid work in conflict zones. He’s the author of the book Memoir of a Wild Man, where he chronicles his experience and reflections from being a contestant on season 11 of the survival show Alone: Arctic Circle. And joined us to talk to us about how his experiences and his faith have shaped him, how he approaches the world, and how it’s influenced his parenting.
Connect with Timber
Website: https://www.timbercleghorn.com/
His book: Memoir of a Wildman
IG: @timbercleghorn
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Read the transcript for this episode:
NOTE: This transcript was auto-generated by an AI assistant that thinks it’s smarter than we are. It’s not, but it has more free time than we do, so we gave it a low-stakes job. It probably spelled a few things wrong, but we’re okay with that. We’d rather spend our time interviewing cool guests!
Dr. Amy Moore: 0:00
Hi, Smart Moms and Dads. Welcome to another episode of the Brainy Moms Podcast, brought to you today by Learning RX Brain Training Centers. I’m Dr. Amy Moore here with my co-host Sandy Zamalis. And before we introduce our guest, we want to invite you to sign up for our free monthly newsletter at the Brainymoms.com. It includes free stuff, information, and tips about topics that we cover on the show, more stuff about parenting, homeschooling. So don’t miss out. Sign up at theBrainymoms.com. And now our conversation today is with the fascinating Timber Cleghorn. Let me tell you a little bit about him if you don’t know who he is yet. Timber is a humanitarian aid worker and survivalist. He grew up off the grid as one of 11 homeschooled siblings. He’s worked his way through the complexities of learning the modern world and settled into a lifestyle of international aid work in conflict zones. He’s the author of the book Memoir of a Wild Man, where he chronicles his experience and reflections from being a contestant on season 11 of the survival show Alone, Arctic Circle. And he’s here today to talk to us about how his experiences and his faith have shaped him, how he approaches the world, and how it’s influenced his parenting. Welcome, Timber. We’re so excited that you’re here today.
Timber Cleghorn: 1:25
Thank you, Dr. Amy. It’s great to be on the show and good to meet you guys.
Sandy Zamalis: 1:30
Hi, Timber. Nice to meet you. I just told Amy that my husband is the one who convinced us to camp.
Timber Cleghorn: 1:38
Like to go camping, to get out and set up a tent and do all that.
Dr. Amy Moore: 1:42
Well, Sandy said that her husband insisted they go camping. And I said, that’s not okay. You can never insist to anyone that they go camping. I mean, that’s that is something that you have to choose voluntarily, willingly, and with passion. That is not something that anyone can insist that you do. It’s just not okay. I didn’t have passion.
Timber Cleghorn: 2:05
I agree. I did go. I agree. I could not agree more. And then if someone’s forced into it, I don’t know how a guy would think that he’s going to have a lot of fun out there with someone who he forced into it. I mean, he’s got to think that through.
Sandy Zamalis: 2:19
Exactly. Well, in fairness. Yeah, go ahead. I was gonna say in fairness, he prefaced it as the kids will love it. And they did. So it made it easy.
Timber Cleghorn: 2:29
I feel like that sentence is a precursor to a lot of misadventures.
Dr. Amy Moore: 2:33
The kids will love it. Exactly. Well, I like I got super lucky because my husband is an avid outdoorsman. And um he he keeps talking about buying a van, um, you know, the sprinter vans that you can just go be by the lake on. I don’t know, whatever. And I’m like, I might make it one night in a sprinter van, maybe one night in a sprinter van. Um and that, I mean, I’m a glamper, right? So roughing it is a three-star hotel, right? Like I just am not an I’m an indoor girl. No, that’s just not okay. But I I’m a boy mom. I have three sons, and so it was perfect. It worked out perfectly because he could he could schlep them up one mountain and down the other. And I was home in the air conditioning.
Timber Cleghorn: 3:25
Oh man, that’s how my wife feels about horseback riding. When we when we dated, I used to take her riding all the time. And then after we got married, I found out that she hated it and she hates horseback riding. She’s like, you know, you go do your thing. We’re married already.
Dr. Amy Moore: 3:37
Do you feel like that you were deceived? Because my husband feels deceived. He had a Jeep when we were dating, and I’m like, he’s like, you used to love having the top down on the Jeep when we were dating. I’m like, yeah, while we were dating. So of course I love.
Timber Cleghorn: 3:56
Now that you’ve got to be a little bit more than a little bit in on this and put some notes down here. Come on, honey.
Dr. Amy Moore: 4:01
Right.
Timber Cleghorn: 4:04
I’ll crack it up. Oh man.
Dr. Amy Moore: 4:09
In all so, in all honesty, um, so Rebecca, who reached out to you, is our PR director. And normally she asks me about guests. Like I’ll tell her, hey, I want these people on, or I want this person on, or she’ll say, Hey, what about this person? They’ve applied to be on. So she didn’t actually ask me about you. And I saw you on the calendar and looked you up. And I emailed her and I went, Rebecca, what am I supposed to talk to him about? I am an indoor girl. Like, I don’t understand. And she’s like, No, he was on Christy Faith’s podcast. It was so fascinating. I’m like, okay, Christy’s a friend of ours. So I go and I watch the Christy Faith podcast. I’m like, okay, he’s a cool cat, totally interesting. Um, even though I’m an indoor girl, we can find something to talk to about. Yeah, for sure. And so then about, I don’t know, four o’clock yesterday afternoon, I’m like, I better go buy his book. So I go, I download your book on Kindle, and now I can’t put it down. Like I got up at 4 30 this morning trying to finish the book because I cannot put it, it is so good. And then I say to my husband, I’m like, you gotta read this book. It’s in our Kindle app. You’re gonna love it. You’re gonna love how he sets up fishing traps. And because my, I mean, like I said, he is an avid outdoorsman. He’s not a hunter, but he’s a fly fisherman, an ice fisherman. Like if it’s outside, he’ll do it. It’s a cool gun.
Timber Cleghorn: 5:33
We would get along well. I I’m so sorry because I meant to mail you a copy of the book. I think I sent a quick note about that like a month ago, and now I’m just thinking about it. I’m like, oh shoot, I’m so sorry about that.
Dr. Amy Moore: 5:44
It’s okay. It’s okay. I’m happy to buy it. I’m happy to support your author revenues.
Timber Cleghorn: 5:52
I didn’t mean for you to even need to buy it. I wanted to have you a hard copy in your hand with weeks to spare. So you could glance at it and I just dropped the ball. I mean, it’s been a hectic season, but I don’t really have an excuse.
Dr. Amy Moore: 6:05
You can send me a signed copy later. Because she’s a fan now. Yeah. I’m a fan now.
Timber Cleghorn: 6:14
Well, what you said about it, the fact that you’re doing it, that means a lot to me. Thank you very much.
Sandy Zamalis: 6:17
Just for cool notes, are those the moose horns from the show alone? Behind you.
Timber Cleghorn: 6:22
That’s my my moose head and my arrows.
Sandy Zamalis: 6:24
Um That is so cool.
Timber Cleghorn: 6:26
My arrows hanging there, which I’ve been putting meat in the freezer with these arrows all winter and fall here.
Dr. Amy Moore: 6:32
That’s so cool. That’s amazing. Yeah, so I’ve never seen the show. I’ve seen previews for the show. And I don’t know if I’m allowed to say this, and so Rebecca might make me edit this part out. But when I’ve seen previews for the show, I’ve said, no, you just have to kill me. Like I couldn’t even do the helicopter ride to get there.
Timber Cleghorn: 6:59
Well, it’s not for everybody, you know, and even viewing the show is not for everybody because I look at it and I’m like, you know, I’m enjoying this because I’m really into people’s survival tactics and their mentalities that they take in here with life. If I weren’t, I would be bored to death watching the show. So I don’t even know how the show is popular. It’s popular with me because I love that kind of stuff. But I look at how slow it is, how long it takes sometimes for something to happen, and I don’t understand how uh viewers out there are like into it, you know. I I really scratched my head. But it was one of the coolest um avenues in my life to get into, you know, broader things, like, you know, uh the Christy Faith podcast and be able to talk about my my childhood growing up as a big-time homeschooler, you know, um one of eleven homeschooled kids in the middle of nowhere with no electricity and running water, you know. It’s good it’s it’s gotten gotten me to be able to break that open a little bit and to discuss it with different people who are kind of in a similar state of mind, like looking at the modern world these days and being like, whoa, you know, it’s dangerous to be a part of it. You know, we need to have our own thing going on, which I I think is really good. But I think the show has really helped me in that way to be able to I think that’s one of the things that’s meant the most to me about it is that it’s helped me as you crack open that box and be able to discourse about it from kind of like from the dark side, you know.
Dr. Amy Moore: 8:17
Yeah. So I I don’t usually like spoilers, but um so but how long did you last? How many days did you last? I know. You don’t know. All right, so how many days how many days or months did you last? Maybe three days. 83 days. Yeah.
Timber Cleghorn: 8:37
Yep. Thank you, Sandy. I was out there 83 days, um, and it’s a long time not to hear another human voice, really.
Dr. Amy Moore: 8:44
Right? Yeah, because you you write that even when the helicopters would the medics would come and take your vitals, they wouldn’t talk to you. You would talk to them, but they wouldn’t talk back to you.
Timber Cleghorn: 8:54
Yeah, they try to really preserve that integrity of the isolation because the producers explain to us what the show is really about is not about survival. It’s about what happens to the human mind in isolation with nothing but nature, you know, and some beautiful things happen, some bad things happen. So that’s what the producers want it to be about and why they edit it that way. So when they come out to check on the medical check, they don’t discourse with you. They look like we’re really preserving the integrity of the fact that you are alone.
Dr. Amy Moore: 9:20
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then one other question. So I know the winner gets a million dollars. You were the runner-up. Did you get anything? Or is it a million or nothing?
Timber Cleghorn: 9:32
There’s nothing for the runner-up.
Dr. Amy Moore: 9:34
Oh, it should be like a sliding scale, right? Like if you’re number two, you should get thank you. Right? Because that’s an accomplished.
Timber Cleghorn: 9:44
I say so. You know, I and I even told the producers, because it’s actually a half million. Most most shows of this type are a million, you know, like Survivor and Outlast, and they’re there are a million, but this one is still stuck at a half million. And by the time you get it home, it’s a quarter million because of taxes if you’re in the US. And so I told the producers, I’m like, look, man, inflation is happening. You gotta, you know, when we’re about to launch, I’m like, you gotta up this thing. And he looked at me and he said, There’s other people ready to take your place, and I shut up.
Dr. Amy Moore: 10:13
Yeah. Well, but you were that was a dream for you, right? I mean, you weren’t doing it for the money, I assume. You were doing it for the experience.
Timber Cleghorn: 10:22
That’s true. That’s that’s true. That’s true. I mean, the money’s in your mind, you want it, but then at the end you realize that it’s the most insignificant thing that you could possibly approach something like that for the purpose of it’s uh you’re very right.
Sandy Zamalis: 10:37
You have a fascinating uh history, Timber. And so I’m gonna give you a chance to kind of um share with our listeners kind of who you are, how you came to be this um huge advocate for you know survival and um really getting to the basics of life. Um in fact, I love your your uh motto at the bottom of your website, which is there’s more to life than the avoidance of death. So um I know that’s kind of broad, but it’s that’s just so true. So give us a little bit more about uh your background and how you ended up on a show called Alone.
Timber Cleghorn: 11:16
Well, thank you. Um I appreciate that. I uh I don’t myself perceive my story as particularly fascinating, but I do understand that it’s very different from what a lot of folks experience, especially in our in our Western world. I did grow up off-grid with you know, no electricity, no running water, is basically what that means. We did everything by hand from plowing the field with horses or without horses just by hand, um, and uh growing everything we ate and living away from society. Um so I was kind of like a addict child in that way. When I left home, I did not know how to order food at McDonald’s or anything about the modern world, didn’t know how to speak to human beings, really. Um so that was that’s a big part of my story, is just going from one to the other. Uh the reason we lived that way is out of kind of out of fear of society at the time. I think that my parents were very alarmed about different events from the Waco, Texas raid incident and others, other things going on in the nation, and they wanted to be as to disappear basically, you know, to dig a doomsday bunker kind of in the hill and vanish and and be safe and teach the children the way they wanted them to be taught, you know, and stuff like that. So and I don’t I don’t particularly knock any of those things, but I I mean I myself choose a different approach to things when the world seems chaotic. Um, you know, hiding isn’t always the answer. And uh so that’s kind of you know, coming from that background and then coming into the the modern world and kind of learning it a bit and then moving into international aid work, that’s kind of my story trajectory. You know, a lot’s taken place in there, but you know, it’s just kind of happened naturally over time. I got uh married a wonderful uh lady named Kara. We have three kids, we do international aid work in conflict zones, which all kind of started on a mission trip years ago. But now we work um Ukraine, um Tajikistan, Afghanistan, border, you know, a lot of different uh really mixed-up places and find a lot of fulfillment through trying to help folks who are in desperate situations. And then um that’s kind of I’ve kind of always been a wilderness person, a hunter and survivalist at heart, and that’s kind of what led me to get on the show alone. Came back from uh two years of particularly difficult aid work with a lot of chaos and death kind of happening all around us, and decided that we needed some time away and got my family to the States, and then I applied for this survival show, and I just did it on a whim and and they called me. I was blown away and went to the Arctic and um spent some time up there killing moose and fish and surviving and putting it all on TV. So that’s kind of my my arc right there, I guess.
Dr. Amy Moore: 13:58
So was the appeal of going on a survivalist show to test yourself, to push your body to limits, to see how well those skills that you had kind of honed over the life your lifetime to see how well you could do? Or was there something more? Did you want the aloneness with nature? Did you want that time alone with God to grow that relationship with Him? What was the appeal? Like what did you what what motivated you to really want to be there?
Timber Cleghorn: 14:35
Um all of it is appealing, you know, test your skills and see how you stack up against other woodsmen and you know, the possibility of the money at the end. All of that was appealing, but the main thing to me was um being in a place where no war was going on in the most extreme way, to have no killing nearby, you know, no bombs exploding, nobody needing evacuated or, you know, medical treatment. And that seems selfish a bit, but I did really need it at the time. I’d gotten really crosswise in my soul about all of that, and I I needed that. So I think that was the main thing, and and that’s why you know I went went through those doors and it felt so good, you know, is to be in uh alone alone with God is is one definite way to describe it, you know, but to be completely away from from war, you know, for a while. And then I just didn’t expect how how good it would be to be alone with God during that time.
Dr. Amy Moore: 15:37
Yeah, my husband always talks about how he feels closer to God while he’s fishing or hiking on a mountain than he is in the church building. So that that sort of reminded me of that. You know, as you like you talked about like memorizing Psalm 27 before you went out there so that you could repeat that to yourself and how um it sort of morphed into this freestyle psalming. I love that you you kind of termed it that, right? Like whatever it was, you know, about God that you were feeling or thinking at the time, you you were vocalizing as a way to keep yourself calm or motivated or comforted, right?
Timber Cleghorn: 16:27
Yeah, true. And I really identify with how your husband feels on that way. I mean, you’ll find me in a church fairly regularly because there’s a lot of importance to it, but that’s to me, that’s very little connection to where I do my worship. You know, I’m I’m in the wilderness, you know, I’m out there with with the trees. I’m talking to a God out there in the fields or mountains or something, and I I don’t know why it’s that way, except for the fact that it seems that God speaks in silence, you know, and the silence is good. Science and I’ve I’ve understood now that it’s good for my kids to you try to give them some silence for their minds and their growth and stuff like that. And I want God to speak to them as well. But yeah, it’s it’s um it’s a big deal to undergo that and to be away from all the noise and to find what the what God has to say to me there. I’m church is good, but that’s not that’s not my main scene.
Dr. Amy Moore: 17:25
Yeah, I my husband actually is on the security team at church and volunteers more than most do because he likes to be outside in the sunshine. Right. So we joke, well, I’m going to church today, but you’re going to the church today. Because he’s not actually inside. He’s outside, you know, patrolling the uh, you know, the campus in the sun. Like there’s something about that exposure to the sun.
Timber Cleghorn: 17:54
That’s such a good way to term that. That’s such a good way to term that. And then all those alone moments like that when you’re, you know, when your mind is thinking on God anyways, you know, maybe his is because it’s Sunday. You know, in the Arctic, mine was thinking on God because I knew that he would have something for my soul to be away from the chaos of the world. And you’re thinking on God, and then it just naturally turns into things that you’ve tucked away in your in your memory, like the Psalm 27 reference that you just made, which became super meaningful to me out there in the in the wilderness. Psalm 27 is such powerful and good words, just filled with life, and I would quote that a lot, and uh then start to realize like it doesn’t just have to be Psalm 27. I I’ll I’ll express it in the same way, what’s going on in my soul. Man, I’m grateful for this land, and I’m grateful to be a creature, you know, a wild creature, even running around, and I’m I’m just gonna say it however it comes out, you know, and then I’ve I really I really love that.
Dr. Amy Moore: 18:49
Yeah, and I love that you said, okay, those were David’s words, right? So his like the psalms are full of lament and why, and this is hard, and oh my goodness, right? Like, how am I gonna survive this? And then there’s this shift, right, in that psalm where David will go, David for most of the psalms would go, but God, right? And then it switches from this lament to this hope. And so when you’re able to turn those words to yours, right? Like this is my lament, and this is my suffering, and this is my struggle, but I have hope in you, Lord, but God. Um, I just found that to be beautiful.
Timber Cleghorn: 19:32
I love that concept so much. I mean, I think that that makes it so more poignant, so much more poignant in our soul than than most sermons that we could hear when it’s somehow God dealing with in that those kind of words, straight with the heart, you know, straight with your heart. It’s so, so important. But yeah, I’m I’m glad that that stood out to you too. I hope it stood out to viewers of the show as well because it gave me a lot of strength. Um, I know that there’s a lot of souls out there just absolutely. Broken in two, worn down, you know, uh traumatized by different things. And um, these words are life-giving, you know, because there’s spaces to them.
Dr. Amy Moore: 20:11
All right. So I and I’m usurping the conversation, Sandy. I’m sorry. I my brain is just going a mile a minute with all of the cool stuff that we can talk about. Um, one of the things that I started thinking about was um how how can you okay, so you’ve been through so much. Like you’ve you’ve been through a lot, right? Through your entire life. I mean, and you you professionally you work in conflict and war zones, right? And so just looking at that and seeing that and surviving that, right? That alone is a lot, but you know, your childhood was hard, and then you’ve subjected yourself to this, you know, hard to survive in um show. What lessons can you take from overcoming all of that adversity, facing all of that danger? What lessons can you take from that and apply it to the smaller things? Like, how do you bring that home to your everyday life? Because do you have this tendency to downplay the small struggles like with your kids or your family? Like, man, look at what I’ve been through. That’s nothing. Or are you able to quickly say, hey, when I’ve struggled, this is something that’s worked for me, regardless of how big or little the struggle was. Talk to us a little bit about that.
Timber Cleghorn: 21:42
You just pinpointed something that’s an enormous topic and I’ve struggled with deeply because for uh quite a few years I noticed myself coming back to the States for a furlough or whatever, and then having a neighbor um heartbroken because she can’t find her cat, you know. And then you just saw another mother heartbroken because she can’t find her children, maybe. Um, and then that really stands out to you, you know, in my human brain of trying to put things on a scale, which I think now just isn’t right. Um I’ve struggled with my response to that, being unkind or belittling, you know, like pull yourself together. You know, what do you think you’re doing? It’s it’s a it’s a cat, you know, for Pete’s sake. You know, it’s a you know, it’s a you’re stressed out because, you know, your window screen has a rip in it, you know, like you’ve got a window. You know, think of that. And and then understanding later through I think primarily through through what God showed me on a loan, really brought it home, is that that’s not the response that God has towards our griefs and sorrows, is to come and be like, well, you know, that’s a little one. Don’t be stupid, you know. Because the bottom line, grief is grief. You know, in our human minds or souls, we don’t always have a box that’s small or big to keep it in and understand it. It’s just grief is like a liquid. It takes over your soul, whether it’s coming from the smallest thing or the largest thing. Um, trauma is the same way. And I understood then that God is kind in any level of scale, whether I needed a fish, you know, and that’s what I what I needed, or whether it was, I’m gonna freeze to death, I need a solution, you know, to two big things, small thing. He had ears for both, is what I felt. And then I understood that I need to adopt that into my life and mentality so that if I am with a bunch of refugees who don’t have a home, or if I’m with a neighbor who just needs help, you know, mowing his yard because he’s elderly and his mower, the belt on his mower broke, both are about the human beings. It’s not about the scale of the need for the world because it’s wrong, I think, for us to approach the world, and this is one of my big hangups, as if, you know, the weight of the world is on our back, and so we have to really select those things that are the most meaningful for the entire world, you know, and then trample right over little individuals like even our children. And I know the early part of my aid work and mission work was was oriented that way a lot. Like, man, we got these big needs of the world on our back. You know, my well, my kid just needs it not at time for the afternoon. But now I look at it very, very differently. I think my child’s need for spending time with me in an afternoon is equally as great as the need of a thousand people at a river crossing needing to get through a bridge. I really I think that it’s the same to me. And I don’t know if that’s doctrinally the correct way to look at it, but it’s helping me to be kinder. And that’s one of the takeaways from the show. You know, that and then also one of those things that to answer the second part of your question, where I can bring something to people who are suffering, you know, and um and feel like it can help, is that two things that that my life hovers around and I find most helpful to me is firstly everything I do is is based on the belief in eternal life. Man, I mean, without that, there’s there’s no there’s no point. And the second thing, especially after alone, is is is thankfulness. No matter what’s going on, no matter how grim all the tasks are gonna look for the day, I try so hard, when my eyes open, to stop before anything and frame my being for that day in these words. Bless the Lord, oh my soul. You know, thank you for this beautiful day that we’re gonna live. You know, I don’t know what’ll bring, grief, hardship, all this kind of stuff. But it helps, it helps me. It really, really helps me. And I found that that that that can trickle around, you know, and and just the positioning ourselves in gratefulness can help any sufferer, any, any sufferer for sure. As long as we’re not like using using my gratefulness as like what a plane, like, well, I’m above you, you know, just be grateful. And it’s an insurmountable jump. How can I be grateful when I just lost my son or something like that, you know? Um, there’s there’s there’s a soft approach to to anybody, but that’s what I think that’s the best answer I could give on that, on that huge question. That’s that’s too big of a question.
Dr. Amy Moore: 26:14
You know, I love that though, and and doctrinally, right, a as you questioned, I mean, Jesus says, Come to me all who are weary and I will give you rest. He does not say, come to me all who are weary from solving the world’s problems only. Right? It’s unconditional, come to me all who are weary. So it can be weary from searching for your cat, or weary from fixing your broken window, or weary from international, you know, humanitarian aid relief. Yeah. Right? Weary is weary, and rest is rest in the Lord.
Timber Cleghorn: 26:52
That’s a good word right there.
Sandy Zamalis: 26:56
Well, let’s I want to dive in a little bit to you’re talking about that gratefulness piece. Um, and we’ve kind of highlighted that you had a really, you know, you’ve had a hard hard life in that there’s been a lot of things that, you know, you know, like I have never experienced and probably many of our listeners have never experienced. And now as a parent, right? Always as a parent, we filter like our history, right? And we want to pick out the good stuff that we want to pass on to our kids and you know, protect them from the stuff that we don’t want them to have to experience as much as we possibly can. What for you, Timber, are the things um, and maybe it’s from, you know, communing with nature and um kind of the skills that you’ve learned through your lifetime. What kinds of things in your home are super important to you that you want your kids to, in their short time that you’re they’re with you, to really impact them for their life and their future?
Timber Cleghorn: 27:56
Um uh I I want to I want to do it in two parts, you know, the negative and the positive. So on the negative, I want to break cycles that I’ve had ingrained in me and accidentally even brought in. I want to break cycles of making decisions in fear. You know, anything in my children, I say, okay, we’re gonna decide how we approach this out of a basis of fear. Like, let’s reframe that, you know, and I want to give that to my child, my children about breaking that cycle of, you know, every single decision I’ve ever seen in life, whether it’s in, you know, a military setting or if it’s in homeschool, you know, or how to approach our if it’s made out of the basis of fear. We’re afraid of something, and so we’re gonna do this. I I’ve always seen it lead to darkness. Now that’s only my experience, but I believe that that’s just systemically that it probably does. So I want to break that cycle, and then on the positive side of things, I would really love it just to know that my children are kind, you know. And kindness pretty much to me encompasses every other positive virtue, you know, be unselfish, you know, you know, giving, um, aware of others, you know, not self-absorbed and things like this. So that’s one of the big principles that my wife and I focus on so really diligently is in every in everything that we do in our family. I I want my children to be kind, with their interacting with with each other or with their teachers or stuff like this. And I think that that’s that word kindness kind of embodies a little world, a little universe of all kinds of other strategies and you know characteristics and things like this that kind of belong under that umbrella. But I think those are the two the two different things, you know, the the right side and the left side, you know, tension, the break the circles of fear and kindness and love really, you know, can blend into the same word, you know. Those are, I think, the two positional basis of our world viewpoint, you know. And so that’s that’s what we are trying to really focus on hard. We we we lose the battle a lot of days, a lot of moments, you know. Um we’re not we don’t have it together, but that’s what we’re pushing for.
Sandy Zamalis: 29:59
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Timber Cleghorn: 31:40
I think I’ve worked through partway, but I’m aware, I’m aware of it. It’s a great book.
Sandy Zamalis: 31:43
But it the whole print the whole principle, at least in my mind, based on you know, everything you shared and um your story, and then also just from other things I’ve read, is um really kind of coming back to who we are at that wild at heart piece. Um, there is a wildness in all of us. You know, dark Amy and I were joking that we’re both indoor girlies, but but there there is something to be said about getting back to the basics or getting or rooting yourself um to the earth in some way, whether it be, you know, learning a basic skill, a survival skill, uh, you know, there’s lots so many out there. Um, and while Amy’s husband is the fisherman, um, you know, and loves to be outdoors, you know, my husband’s more of that like army uh prepper kind of like, you know, we’ve all got it in us a little bit. Um, how much of that wildness do you include um in your family time and how you parent your children?
Timber Cleghorn: 32:43
Um I think that if I look at my family and I think I’ll parent them the best if I’m the best version of myself that I can be, that’s going to incorporate a certain amount of wild time. So we all do like camping and you know, fishing and, you know, expeditions and being out in the nature of the mountains or whatever. And objectively, my wife enjoys as well. She likes hiking, you know, she’s fairly outdoorsy, um, and I’m lucky in that way. But I try to temper that with looking at my kids and saying, you know, you know, while while I want that to be the basis, I want to be the best me that I can be, and for them to see me just thrilled and enjoying things, and then that they’ll be happy, especially those they’re young. I think as they grow older, I’m starting to see that, well, they’re not gonna be just like me. You know, they’re not gonna necessarily have the same interests that I do. And my one of my great fears is that one of my sons will like race cars or something, you know, because I mean that to me, that’s just a dead world. You know, what would you do that for?
Dr. Amy Moore: 33:43
One of my sons is a motorcycle racer.
Timber Cleghorn: 33:46
So stop him from listening to this podcast. He won’t like me well.
Dr. Amy Moore: 33:55
I promise he doesn’t listen to this podcast.
Sandy Zamalis: 33:59
Oh, I won’t mention that my husband’s currently building a streetcar, but okay.
Dr. Amy Moore: 34:06
Okay, let me just back up. Let me just back up because I know. My thought process there was this is a child who grew up afraid of everything. Like everything that Jeff tried to introduce to him that was outdoorsy or fast. My husband’s a retired fighter pilot, right? So he’s like whatever brings adrenaline, he’s there. And so um this is a child who grew up afraid of everything, like everything. And then to all of a sudden to start racing bikes, racing motorcycles, that’s huge is the shift that we’re all like, who are you? And what have you done with our kid? Right. He’s 25. But anyway, um, so I it just when you said that, I thought, well, actually, there is something to this conquering fear that he walked through in that decision-making process, right? Like there’s something there that maybe it is, he also has a regular job as well. But there’s something to that, right? That it was a fear-conquering, not just adrenaline-seeking choice.
Timber Cleghorn: 35:18
That’s huge. And then as a parent, that has to just thrill you when you see that take place, even though, even though you might be like, oh no, he’s racing motorcycles, you know, but you you still see him conquering fear. That’s that’s wonderful.
Dr. Amy Moore: 35:28
Yeah. Well, where’s Kevlar? And I mean, he’s pretty well. I mean, it’s on a track. So, you know, it’s the I guess it’s the best scenario there can be for being a you know bike racer. Anyway, back to what you were saying. Sorry to interrupt. Um, so you were talking about um you were talking about introducing your kids to the best person that you can be while still exposing them to wild things.
Timber Cleghorn: 35:56
Right. I want to give them freedom to be their own individuals and to be interested in different things than I am. What I don’t want to create is a situation in which they’re like, well, my dad did this, so I have to grow up and be somebody in the survival world, and then maybe feel like they never measure up because it wasn’t their thing, and then have underconfidence in themselves about that. I don’t want to ever foster a situation like that. So yesterday, for example, I took my oldest son Levi hunting, he’s 11, and he had mentioned that he wanted to go deer hunting this year, and it’s the season’s almost over, it’s muzzloader season, so I take him out. And I just have gotten the feeling that he’s he’s not really into it. So I’m watching him. We get out there, we’re waiting, and I want, you know, he requested it. He knows I’m into it. You know, it was my birthday, so he wanted to do that with me. And we get out there and I’m like, he’s not really into it. You know, we’re waiting. It’s boring, and he’s fidgeting, and I can see that he wants to go to the house. So I’m like, you know, I need to spend some time learning him more than just getting absorbed in my thing and having him along with me. So I I tried to reframe it to him. I’m like, Levi, when I’m hunting, sometimes I imagine different worlds. And I was like, what if you were suddenly, if if we’re in the woods here and you suddenly we’re if we’re back in the dinosaur days, what sci-fi weapon would you choose to take with you? You know? And he’s like, oh, you know, he’s really into that. So he’s thinking through all these movies and sci-fi weapons and stuff. And I’m just using that as an illustration for how I like I want to give my children space and not be like, be quiet, we’re hunting, you know. This is how you do it, right? Even though I felt like doing that because he was noisy and we weren’t going to see any deer. Um, but I understand like they might not want to do what I do. And I’m a weirdo, you know, I’m a strange and wild and crazy person, you know, and it’s not for everyone. And if I make my kids do that, I might really make them unhappy and therefore maybe even upset at me someday. And I I don’t I’d be heartbroken to have the same thing between me and my sons as came between me and my dad, you know, when I was young. So I it I keep them that in mind a lot.
Dr. Amy Moore: 37:56
Is that how you had that awareness? Like, were you initially as a parent, hey, we’re gonna do this because I love to do this and this is great and you’re gonna enjoy it? Like, was there a shift that happened when you said, wait a minute, I need to be aware of what is bringing my child joy in this moment, too? How did you come to that point?
Timber Cleghorn: 38:19
There was a shift for sure. I’m not really sure. Um, I’ve never been asked that question. And so having not thought it through, I know about the time frame that it happened, but I think it was just through contemplating how painful it must be for my dad and for myself to have gone through what we went through. And then looking at my son Levi and he was two and three years old, and thinking, if I just let life happen, that’ll happen. I know it’ll happen. So what do I need to do? And like I said, I don’t win all these battles. You know, I I make mistakes with approaching my kids a lot, I know. But I’m I’m trying to be really intentional. I’m trying to grow. I’m trying to say, you know, if I assume that I’ve made it, I’m gonna make horrible mistakes. If if I don’t grow, like I just have this desperate, desperate, desperate feeling that I’ve got to grow with my kids because I can’t stop them from growing. You know, if I was doing great with them when they were two, they’re a different person when they’re three. So I have to desperately seek growth to match or exceed them, you know. And to grow as a human, you know, once we reach adulthood, um, does take intention because we’d like to level out and be like, well, you know, life is going all right. I know what to do in this, you know, and then so just cruise. And uh if growth stops, though, we’ll die in some way, you know, and and uh I’d I think that was the mentality that helped me to approach my kids, helps me approach my kids different each day. But I’m not exactly sure like if there was an a a moment or an event that that helped it to be except except just my childhood, just having my childhood in mind, you know. I uh I spent a lot of years really miserable, you know. Wanted to kill myself, if you probably know if if uh if you’ve read the book there and stuff. So I I want I want to grow for my kids’ sake, and that’s all.
Dr. Amy Moore: 40:12
Yeah. You talk about um how failure was not an option for you as a child, like that’s how you were raised. But you you know, you were going after that moose and failed the first time, right, to get it, and then you got him uh the next try. Um how did you overcome that failed opportunity to get a winter’s worth of food? Plus it’s the hunt, right? Like this is sport for you too, in a way, right? Like it’s how did how do you take that failure and pick yourself back up and say, okay, what did I learn from this and how am I going to apply this tomorrow?
Timber Cleghorn: 41:03
Um well, you’re you’re that was a good that’s a good incident for me to study on it because that moose was a big deal. When I missed it, I’m like, well, you know, it happens to miss animals, but it never happens when you’re playing for half a million dollars and need to survive. Never happens when you’re this hungry, and it also never happens when everyone gets to view it on TV, you know, and see, oh, look at that guy miss, you know. You know, and uh then you hear all the jeers, which actually do happen after as the show airs. It’s pretty horrible, you know, the all of the blowback from everything you do, um, even from quoting Psalm 27, lots of blowback, you know, from stuff like that. Um so all that’s floating in my mind as I miss the moose, you know, I’m like, man, uh this is this is a hard one to swallow because I think I’ve got a lot of pride, so that hurts with the viewership, you know, criticizing me in my brain. Um but I also had a lot of need. Um I needed the the meat, and then I have a genuine um uh fear of failure and loathing of coming up short, you know, just built into me as as many of us do, many, many people. I know it’s super common. And it was just a matter of wrestling with it in my heart and then learning like it’s very hard for me to let go of things, always has been. But as I’ve made more and more mistakes in my professional life doing humanitarian aid work, and some of it’s been very costly. And as I’ve lost more people, um you I guess the practice learning that you know your life will go on. You know, keep your shoulders loose, like Kung Fu Panda would say, and just face the next moment. Um, but that that’s that’s um that’s not to say that that eliminates the super painful moments when the failure happens. And I think that you have to just embrace those and swallow them because life is about feeling things. You know, you gotta you gotta feel it all um it to truly live. You’ve gotta feel good and bad and and then you have to embrace the idea that you’re going to. And um, and then I just love that mental picture. You know, just keep your shoulders loosened up so you don’t get too tight and freeze up and just and just do what’s next. Um, I don’t really know anything fancy to say about it besides that. I it’s it’s taken a lot of trial and error, a lot of practice for me to be able to let go better, and I’m still not that good at it. Um it’s it’s hard enough to let go not being the winner of a loan. I don’t know if you wanted spoilers in here yet, but I chose for some very some reasons I felt very strongly about not to win when I knew there’s two of us left. And that’s that still stings. Not being the man at the end, not being the winner, that still stings and it’s hard to let go. But then I have to understand that if I define myself by my failures or successes, I never ever will be satisfied, a satisfied soul. You know, because no matter how successful you are, if you’re defined by the success, we human beings aren’t perfect. No matter how successful you are, there’ll be failures that only you know about, and it’ll rake you over the coals. You’ll be absolutely miserable, dissatisfied, you know, so much. And I came to grips with that on the show and became what I what I describe as like the most satisfied person I could possibly be. And that helps me and still helps me today to know that my satisfaction doesn’t come from my success as much as just from what I am with the creator. If he looks at it and he’s pretty happy with what he set up, it was not all contingent upon my failures or successes, and I can let go and be free to be happy and satisfied just being a creature, making his way through this world, bumping off the right obstacle and the left obstacle, making mistakes like everybody else, because I’m not better than everybody else, you know? If I define myself by successes or failures, it’s trying to force myself into a position where I understand that I’m better than everybody else. And it’s the most, one of the most unhealthy things that I think a person can orient to. And I hope that answers your question a bit. Was that on topic?
Dr. Amy Moore: 45:15
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I I’d love to hear, I know Sandy’s got a question. So when we come back from after her question, I would love to hear how you apply that as a parent to Yeah.
Sandy Zamalis: 45:29
And maybe we can tie them together. So um, Timber, the whole when you were sharing that experience, all I could think of was how what a unique perspective to experience. Um because you’ve lived off grid. You’ve lived where you’ve grown you’ve grow you grew up that way. Then you go, you’ve lived your life, you you’ve been around the world, you decide to go on this show where you’re off-grid again, and you have this whole experience that has its own frame and bubble of being, you know, disconnected. And then to relive that experience again, but through the eyes of everyone else, or through a camera, right? And then experience what you mentioned was the blowback of people then, you know, you know, Monday morning, what is it, Tuesday morning quarterbacking, whatever that phrase is, um what you could have done better or what you probably should have said, or you know, if they were there, they would have done this, X, Y, Z. I think that’s a fascinating, very hard but fascinating perspective. And um, just from everything you’ve shared so far on this park podcast, I’m super just thankful that the Lord had rooted you so strongly that you could hopefully be able to weather that storm because I’m sure it was much easier in some regards to be out in the wilderness than it was to come back and relive that experience uh through the eyes of everyone else.
Timber Cleghorn: 46:52
Absolutely. That that is the really difficult part, is because you know, you’re so invested in what you’ve done out there. And I it’s this way for every contestant. I’m not special in this way. You’re so invested in everything that you’ve done and in the choices that you feel you had to make because there’s serious constraint and lack of resources out there. I mean, you’re trapped and you have to do this or this. And it’s never shown the situation, it’s never shown what what you why you had to do this or this. You’re just trying something, and then you hear everybody just I mean, you can’t stop your phone from ringing, you know. Um, a lot of guys just abandon their phone for the whole three months that the show airs. Um, but I I couldn’t do that. I had to kind of keep tabs. And it was just so much, positive and negative. And the negative really surprised me because, you know, I things that I felt were objectively good. You know, like I had this talk like, what do I do? Why do I do what I do? Because I want to go to other countries to help people who are living in fear and who want a helping hand to stand by, you know, and I don’t ask for anything. I’m not one of these guys that’s like, well, if I give you this sandwich, you got to believe in Jesus, you know. Um, that’s that’s not part of my universe. And but that’s what I got in the face from so many hundreds and hundreds of people, you know, like, oh, we know this blankety blank kind of colonizer. You know, he’s a religious colonizer, he’s this and this and this. And it it really hurt. It was really, really deep, deep hurt. And then I realized, like, oh, well, the issue here is that I have to grow again. I have to grow another notch. And I thought we I did that by doing the alone experience. But then as it played on TV, I realized I had a serious growth void that I had to grow to be able to ingest those kinds of things and understand and not get cynical against all human beings once more. You know, it was like a it was just a a new raw thing. Um so that was that was definitely harder than the survival. It was harder than than than all of that, you know, and then to it never goes away because it’s preserved on TV there forever. You’re always the guy who didn’t win because of this or this. So even today, like almost every single day, I’ll have uh, you know, on social media and other kind of stuff, people who have just watched the show, they’ll be pouncing on me about like, I don’t understand how stupid you could possibly be for being that close to the money and then doing what you did. That’s the I’ll never understand that. And I was really rooting for you, but you’ve crushed me, you know. Or I was people bet money. They’re like, we bet money on you, and now we’re super mad. Um and just letting that go was just another growth step that I had to face and still do. Still do. It’s not like growth for me is not like a one and done thing where like I I grew over that notcha. I’m fine with that kind of thing. I’ve have to do it every day. Every every day to stay growing ahead of it, or it’ll just catch up with you.
Dr. Amy Moore: 49:45
Yeah. Well, I hear yeah. It’s not the same, but Sandy will tell you that I get crap on TikTok all the time for being a Christian. And so, you know, I think there was a moment where I said to her, Well, do I need to change my background? Should I take my, you know, God signs and Christian books down? And then it almost instantly was like, No, this is who I am and this is what I believe. And so listen to me or don’t listen to me, right? And so the same is true for you, right? If you want to quote the Psalms, watch you or don’t watch you, right?
Timber Cleghorn: 50:22
Absolutely. Because at that point, you know, you’re not doing it to present an image, you know, and and this is what I want to tell people about alone. Like what I did and what I said out there had nothing to do with trying to present an image because you lose, you’re so alone that you lose the idea that the world even exists. You know, you’re not trying to present an image to them, you’re just experiencing things. And you’re saying as you experience it. So I never want to hide the beauty that I’m seeing, you know. And to me, I saw, I thought I saw God do this or do that for me out there. Well, if I’m seeing it, I it was beautiful. And I never want to hide the beauty that I’m seeing. I’m gonna be honest about it. And I think it was the what’s on your wall, you know, I know it’s about the same thing. You don’t want to want to hide the beauty that you personally see. What else are we gonna bring to the world besides a stereotypical dead face, you know, that I could the only thing I could present to the TV would be just a random survivalist with a face that was starving and skinny. You know, I was like, no, I’m seeing these, I’m just experiencing it for me. You know, maybe not for others. I’m gonna speak about it and present it and interact with the camera about that in that way. And I I know it felt to a lot of people, like like folks like us or like me on the show was trying to try to posture towards them, you know, about Jesus or about our religious views, about eternal life. Absolutely not at all. Because what I found Jesus for is me. This is what’s so special about it. Um, I can’t find Jesus for somebody else. So why would I want to pretend that I could? I can only find him for me. And that really has has come into my parenting with my children too. I can’t offer their soul to God. I can only offer mine. But if I do it in the best way I know how, and if it’s beautiful, if it’s beautiful, they’ll see it and notice, you know. They will they’ll understand, you know, and so don’t ever hide what’s on your wall behind you. I was admiring your backdrop earlier. God is good, y’all. And thinking about how beautiful it is that I’ve found that to be true. I might shout it from the house tops, but not because of anybody else, but because I am happy at having found life. So, yeah, sorry. I went too way too deep into that. I know, but it’s a it’s a topic that I feel so deeply about.
Dr. Amy Moore: 52:41
And the way that you modeled your faith in front of millions, um, but to be able to impact your children when they see that, that is not teaching them a Bible story. That is saying, look, dad loves the Lord, and here’s why. Right? Like, why would you not want that too?
Timber Cleghorn: 53:04
Yeah, that’s what we hope. That’s what we will hope to have in our family. But, you know, I un I see so many people trying to give God their children’s souls, you know. Um, and I think that if we really get into homeschooling and um organic parenting, it’s so important. But we only have to keep in the back of our mind that that’s theirs. It’s theirs, you know. Uh I can’t I can’t give God my child’s soul. I can only um show him how it looks the best, the best that I can, you know, because uh I’m I’m meeting a lot of children that grew up in my generation. The reason I say this is this I’m meeting so many of my age group of children that grew up in in my organization or in my type of organization, you know, off-grid militia anti-government groups, uh, or just super, super conservative Christian groups. Yeah, my heart is there, you know. I’m conservative, you know, and all this, but I’m meeting so many my age who are so angry, they’re atheists, they are um so anti-Christian. And I’m like, well, what went wrong there? You know, I understand my family, but I don’t understand theirs. But I’m pretty sure that systemically Christian parents or parents of any religion, but I think parents think that it’s their job to give the soul of their child to their belief system. And that in fr that goes against the very core, I think, of what God created when he set humans on this world to be autonomous and free, you know, and and as much as I can’t give God my wife’s soul, I also can’t give it for my son. And it’s really frustrating because I look at him and I’m like, yes, I want him to believe like me and to see the beauty that I see and to do it, you know. But I can’t take that territory by force, with discipline or with you know harsh words, and take it from him and give it to God, or I know for sure that he’ll end up like like um like I did for a while, you know, in an angry person feeling robbed, you know. And and I I I I talk to a lot of, especially after the show, a lot of folks my age who grew up in a kind of a kind of a similar family, maybe not as extreme as mine, but kind of a similar family, who uh who so angry, who live in anger because of that, I think because of that that very topic right there. I don’t know if that makes sense, and I understand that I kind of veered off topic here a little bit, I think.
Dr. Amy Moore: 55:34
But we love veering off topic. That’s where the good stuff is. Yeah.
Sandy Zamalis: 55:40
So Timber, you’ve shared you brought up homeschooling and just that importance of um if I if we would summarize, just really modeling God’s love versus trying to, you know, win them for Christ, right? Um how important would has it been in your life to make sure that your kids have a bigger, broader view of the world?
Timber Cleghorn: 56:11
It’s to me it seemed really important, you know, and uh maybe I’ve taken it too far. You know, we’ve we’ve pulled back a bit uh since alone we’ve pulled back at how much the I have the family overseas involved in this really heavy work. Um but at the same time, my I’ve I’ve seen it bear fruit in my kids’ lives, Levi and Elliot. Uh they’re 11 and 8, and they’re in school here in the States, now in our local public school, you know, because we’ve homeschooled and we we’ve we’ve we’ve done this, you know, we’re just kind of doing different things for our kids. And I’ve seen it come out in in ways that I really like in kindness. Um my son, Levi, I’m so proud of him. There’s a couple kids in his class with autism or you know, different things. There’s a deaf kid, and he’s he’s really kind and caring to them because he’s uh he’s known how it’s felt to not be able to speak to other kids in the community when we were in one country or another, to feel isolated because of that, to feel shoved out. You know, he he understands that. So I really, really value that being in my kids’ lives. At the same time, there’s a number of negative things that have come into my kids’ lives through doing that is in in the form of various traumas and insecurities, um, not knowing where home would be, not knowing what pillow we would lay our heads on, you know, um for maybe too long, maybe. Um so there’s there’s there’s a bit of both there. But I do think and hope that it will it will stretch them to have a larger view, and that can only help. It can only help even in spite of the the difficulties.
Sandy Zamalis: 57:40
One of your stories that you shared um was it because of your upbringing and you were um really cocooned. Um it was just really that awe of learning that there was good in the world. There was evil in the world too, but there was a lot of good in the world to see. Um I don’t know if you want to share about that a little bit at all, but um, I think what you’re kind of describing is there there is a good and a bad, but there’s there is an importance to being able to see creation in all of its glory and not just um be cocooned or in a kind of microcosm um where you don’t really get to interact and have empathy and compassion for others.
Timber Cleghorn: 58:26
That’s true. Echo chambers of thought are never good, you know. There there are good thoughts in closed communities that become echo chambers. There are good thoughts there, but the the outcome as a whole is never good if it’s closed in the echo chamber. For me, breaking out of that, I don’t know how, but I’d always all my life felt when I’m out in the wilderness on my trapline as a kid or out in the woods, felt that felt that I knew God was seeing me, you know, could could see me and uh would and and and wanted to show me life, you know, something good, you know. I’ve just had that conviction and I kind of lost it for a number of years as, you know, life was just so hard and full of stress and and grief to me that I I was like, no, I I don’t I don’t even like this world. I don’t like anything in it. I want to kill myself, you know, I want to get out of this, you know, this world. And it breaks my heart to see people there. Some of the kids that were kind of in the community that I grew up with did um commit suicide. Uh and some tried, you know, and are scarred, you know. Um I don’t know how God always pressed through to my mind that there was good that he would show me. And I was every time I was out there in the woods, you know, just breathing free air and knowing that there’s it’s bigger. It’s bigger than what we’re saying. Just understanding that. And I think that as I left home and entered the world, um, man, it seemed so immense and so big, and I was surprised to find kind people in it because we had believed that, you know, everyone wanted. To kill us, you know, everyone was on one side or the other, you know. Um, and you know, I was surprised to find kind police officers, you know. I was taught, you know, I remember being a kid and praying that any police officer I saw that he would die so that he couldn’t kill us and steal the younger brothers and sisters, you know. I was pulled over and given a speeding ticket as I left home and went to college, and the and the dude was a perfectly normal human being. I was like, wow, that’s proof that it is bigger than what we’ve been seeing. And as I move forwards, I try to keep that wonder in my mind, you know, that, man, this is a good taste, but it’s bigger than this yet, you know? And I think that that might might be the nature of God is to be like, wow, I taste life, I taste love, I see light. It’s bigger even than this yet, you know. And so I don’t want my personal journey in seeking light from God to end with what I learned on a loan, because on alone I felt like I was just seeing a crack through the doorway, you know. God was so good to me, you know, filling my soul with healing and life once again. And then I just thought, it’s gotta be even bigger than this, you know, and I think that was one of the curiosities in my mentality that that has helped me to kind of look that way and to see it and find it. I I really want to write this kind of thing in a pamphlet or book entitled, Step in All the Puddles, you know, like from the perspective of a child with his first pair of rubber boots. And he’s gonna step in every puddle that he comes to with endless wonder, not knowing what’s at the bottom of that puddle, you know. And we never do that as adults, and that’s growth mentality right there, is to be curious and experiment and to understand that it’s bigger and you know, and it’s endless. And I think that in in my approach to leaving a really closed-minded community, that that was so visible to me that it was bigger, that that’s easy for me to visualize moving forwards yet again, is that it’s it’s even bigger, you know. And I don’t know if that really even makes sense. I’ve never described it that way before.
Dr. Amy Moore: 1:01:58
Yeah, it’s fantastic. Um so as much as that would be the perfect ending to this show, I do have one last question uh to ask you. So um I used to think that my husband wasn’t afraid of anything. And he explains it that um he takes calculated risks, right? So he weighs uh the risk before making a decision. And so, but it seems like I’m not afraid of anything. It seems like you’re not afraid of anything. It seems like you’ve been through it all and you’ll just keep doing it all. How do you balance doing it all? Right? How do you balance being brave enough to do it all with risk? And then how do you communicate that to your kids when they express fear of doing something?
Timber Cleghorn: 1:02:54
I’m so glad you asked that question before we would would end our discussion because to me it boils down to the difference between two words, confidence versus conviction. Now, a conviction is a position you have in your heart that you believe is right, you know, and confidence is just thinking that you’re big enough to do something, right? Now, if I swagger around with confidence, it’ll hurt every time I fall because it’ll show me that I’m wrong about that confidence. And this goes back to how we deal with failure too. So if I’m confident, I’m confident in something, you know, you know, myself or my abilities, or even in my spiritual relationship, I might be confident in that relationship itself. But then when I make mistakes and fall and fall and fall, disappointment, you know, I might make the wrong choices and that kind of thing. But what I’ve tried to have in my life to temper the fact that I actually am afraid of a lot of things still, and I’m working on it. I’m afraid of I’m afraid of my children being I I didn’t even think I knew fear until I got children. You guys will know exactly what I’m talking about here. With children, I’m I’m afraid of everything. I’m afraid that my daughter will I’ll be out at work and I’ll be like, did she break her leg? My son leave, I broke his leg, you know, once and and uh we’ve got this little daughter now. And I’m I’m afraid. But what I try to lean into is to me is the word for what I do, for what I do that could be considered dangerous or moves I make in life, is the word conviction. Because like if you can envision a picture of a guy wanting to charge up a hill with enemies on it and take that hill, um, a confident guy thinks that he’ll do it, you know? A guy with conviction in his heart um just thinks that it must be done. Because it’s right. And he has he doesn’t know if he’ll live or die. He doesn’t know if it’ll be ta if the hill will be taken, you know? But he’s like, but I’m I’m going, yes, of course, I’m going to go up it. And why? Because it’s what I believe in. It’s what I believe is right and good and beautiful and true. And I think that everything is like, we gotta find those things that we believe are. And to me, I believe that, you know, the like resurrection, the promise of resurrection, eternal life, light, and the beauty of kindness from Jesus. I think these things are so objectively good that it seals my conviction I’m gonna do the things that go that way, even if I can’t do it. Confidence, if I stand in confidence, I’ll be like, oh, I can do it. But I actually I’m experienced enough to know that I probably can’t, you know. Um, so confident people blow my mind because I don’t seem to be able to muster up all that confidence. But what I do have sometimes is conviction. The fact that if there’s something that’s worth doing and it’s the time and place, we’re gonna do it, you know. And we we might fail, we might make a mess, we will make a mess, we might, there’ll be a great cost, you know, there’ll be all of these things. But it’s conviction that not that it can be done, but that it should be done, or it must be done. And in this way, I would like to encourage moms. Because I look at my wife going through what she’s going through to parent, you know, we’re older, you know, now and we have this newborn, and we didn’t think that we would, but you know, after alone, you know, you’ll read my story on a loan, you’ll be like, oh, I really started wanting a daughter. Ask God for a daughter. I’ve got this beautiful daughter, I’m so happy. But it’s full on because I think that she is somewhere on the autism scale, and uh parenting her we had therapy, therapists come today and try to help her learn to crawl, and she’s almost a year and a half, you know, and uh there’s it’s there’s problems there. She doesn’t sleep well at all because of, you know, different pains in her in her body and stuff like this. So I see my wife going through this, and um, I see her confidence be totally shattered that sometimes that she can make it through the day on the level of sleep that she’s gonna get. But then I see that word conviction come into her eyes that she’s going to do it anyways, because it must be done. And I love that. I admire my wife for that. And I want to encourage all other mothers and parents in general out there that, you know, parenting is it’s the hardest thing, you know. If you’re gonna be intentional and try to be like, let’s let’s do it well, you know, it’s gonna take all your time, it’s harder than your job, you know, all this kind of stuff, you know, like we know. But approach it with conviction rather than confidence, so that you don’t disappoint yourself too much. So that if you fail, you’re like, I knew that, I knew that would happen. But I’m gonna do it. I’m going to. Because it has to, I must, because it’s right, because it’s beautiful and good and true. Um, and if we can’t be confident people, that’s okay. Because I know fearless people as well, guys that in aid work and stuff like this, that I know fearless, fearless people, and I am not one of them. But I think that conviction is is a better land to live in.
Dr. Amy Moore: 1:07:52
Wow. That’s awesome. Um I’m actually at a loss for words. So I have to tell you, you know, at the top of the hour, I said, well, I’m not really sure what I’m gonna be able to talk to Timber about because I’m an indoor girl and I don’t really understand this wild adventure uh lifestyle. Um this is one of my favorite interviews I’ve ever done, and we are in season six.
Timber Cleghorn: 1:08:20
Oh wow. That’s incredible. That’s in that’s really thank you. Wow.
Dr. Amy Moore: 1:08:26
Okay, so I do have to know were you ever scared of the grizzly bears? You talk about them in terms of they’re gonna steal my food. I have to make sure that they don’t steal my food. But were you ever afraid that they were going to kill you?
Timber Cleghorn: 1:08:43
Oh yeah, there was that one time that I wanted to retrieve some something, some of the bones or an arrow, try to look for an arrow or something, and I went there and I was like moseying around, and suddenly I felt all the hair stand up on the back of my neck, and the wall of brush is to the side. I can’t see into it, and I knew that would only happen if that grizzly could see me right now. He sees me right now. And I got terrified at that moment. I’m like, he’s gonna maul me. I was actually walking, and I, as of before I put a step down, I had this vision pop into my head. I’m like, he charges out of the brush right here and shakes me like a dog, you know, and mauls me. And I took my foot right back and I was like, nah, and I went a different direction. Um I was I was definitely afraid about that time. But typically, like in my normal routine of life, I didn’t think he would mess with me much because he just wanted to, you know, mostly live in peace. But, you know, if I I knew if I provoked him, I’d be dead.
Dr. Amy Moore: 1:09:37
Yeah, I think that that would be enough that I wouldn’t get off the helicopter. Um, we when we first we live in Colorado. So when we first moved to Colorado, and I’m a beach girl, I grew up on the beach. Okay, we moved up, we moved to Colorado. My husband takes the kids on a hike, and he comes home and he plugs his phone into the television to show me the pictures that he took, and he’s got like a close-up of a bear. And I said, Well, exactly how far away were you? Right. And he’s like, Well, about 30 feet. And so I throw everybody in the truck, drive to Big Five Sporting Goods, walk up to the ammo counter and say, Okay, look, I’ve got a 357 Magnum, I’ve got a beretta, like I list all of the weapons that I own. And I’m like, you need to tell me what ammo I need to protect my children from bears in Colorado.
Timber Cleghorn: 1:10:31
You are a good mom.
Dr. Amy Moore: 1:10:35
And I’m like, Jeff, you have to carry this now, right? And the guy’s like, you need hollow points, and he’s just like throwing ammo on the counter. And I’m like, I’ll take it all.
Timber Cleghorn: 1:10:44
So that is awesome. That is awesome. I love that story so much. I love that story. I love that story. Oh my gosh.
Dr. Amy Moore: 1:10:57
And you know, it was funny. Like, I’ve literally put them all in the truck. Like it, it’s not like I just went to Big Five Sporting Goods. I’m like, get in the truck.
Timber Cleghorn: 1:11:06
So that is awesome.
Dr. Amy Moore: 1:11:11
My husband just standing there shaking his head. He’s like, I’m not carrying all of this. It’s heavy. I’m like, and you’re not taking my children out in the woods again.
Timber Cleghorn: 1:11:23
Oh my goodness. Or when you’ve living in Colorado, how many bears have you in have you bumped into? Did you use all that ammo of?
Dr. Amy Moore: 1:11:29
So yeah, he doesn’t tell me uh if he sees any when he’s out in the wilderness because he knows that I’ll lose my mind. Um, but they’re they walk around our neighborhood. And I live in the suburbs. So I’m not I don’t live in the woods. I live in the Colorado suburbs. And um bears walk around my yard, coyotes walk around my yard. I mean, bobcats, I mean, we have wildlife in Colorado. And so, but if you shoot them in your yard in the suburbs, they get a little angry. Like I think. I’m like, look, if you threaten my children, I’ll drag you across the threshold of my house and say I shot you in my fire.
Timber Cleghorn: 1:12:19
100%. Oh man.
Dr. Amy Moore: 1:12:28
So yeah.
Timber Cleghorn: 1:12:30
Aw. Well, um don’t feel like you have to watch the show just for my sake, because if it’s boring, you know, don’t you don’t have to make yourself do it.
Dr. Amy Moore: 1:12:41
I like I’m well, so I like I like reality TV. I watch Survivor. Like I like, which I know it’s not the same. So I do enjoy watching people do things that I would never do. Um I just thought the previews that I have seen looked terrifying, like terrifying to the point where I wasn’t sure I could watch it. But now, like I know you live, so I’m gonna watch it.
Timber Cleghorn: 1:13:11
Yes, I’m allowed. Um so if you do get in watching it, you know, because you you won’t know this little fact already from the book. If you do start in watching it, you gotta know that the guy who stabs himself with an arrow is fine. Okay, so you gotta know that in advance. Knowing that like the show, that that part is terrifying, you know. So he’s fine. Um it was it was close, he had a close call, and it was one of the most dangerous moments of in the show history. But when you get to that part, just be like, you know, kids, he’s totally fine.
Sandy Zamalis: 1:13:38
Timber, just out of curiosity, is there camaraderie with the contestants? Do you guys uh are because you didn’t really you didn’t really you weren’t really with each other but for probably before and maybe after, but like Yeah But they’re you know And how did you know there’s more like sheer stories, right?
Timber Cleghorn: 1:13:59
There’s some camaraderie for sure. We um all the ten people from my season we have like a a group chat and every month or so we’re saying something to each other on it, you know, we’re wishing each other happy birthday, something like that. We’re like not I don’t we’re not like really close. Um Dub, um you’re probably familiar with with who Dub is, he wrote the foreword in the book there. I consider him a close friend, you know, and and William, the winner, he would be a close friend if we live kind of near each other, but he’s uh because they’re awesome family, but he’s just super, you know, not up on social media that much and just you know live an organic life, which I really respect. Um but Dub is my good friend. We we spent ten days all together before launching out into the wilderness while they do the camera training and all that. And then Dub and William and myself spent spent ten days together after the show. Yeah. Um But they you asked how we I knew there’s only one guy left. Like they when they do come after do the health checks um after the rivers freeze up, they use the helicopter to come on do the health checks. And so anytime you hear a helicopter, you’re like climbing a tree and like looking around, like, where’s it going, you know? And um so because they they do false stops to confuse you too, so that you don’t know because they’ll like land in a random clearing to confuse you, but eventually you get dialed in like to how long it takes, and then I’m I’m I I knew there’s like that guy over there, he’s the only one, and it was and it was true, you know.
Dr. Amy Moore: 1:15:20
So you were guessing. It’s not like you like you didn’t know for sure. All right, well, don’t tell me any more about it because I’m gonna read the book. So thank you for being with us today. You were just um a wealth of inspiration and insight. Um I love your story, I love your faith, I love how you live it out. Um thanks for taking time away from your kids and your wife to be with us today and to bless our listeners with your insights and experience.
Timber Cleghorn: 1:15:52
Absolutely my pleasure. And thank you. Thank you both. And thank you for your very thoughtful and deep questions as well. I mean, it’s one thing to talk about, like, oh, so how did you shoot the arrow? You know, it’s like, you know, I’d much rather talk about these matters of the soul.
Dr. Amy Moore: 1:16:07
I wouldn’t even think to ask a question like, how did you shoot the arrow arrow? So that’s funny. Um, let’s close the show. Uh, listeners, this is all the time that we have for today. We are so excited uh that Timber Clycorn joined us uh for this hour. We will put links uh to his book and his website in our show notes. Um, and listeners, we just love that you choose to spend an hour with us every week. Again, be sure to sign up for our free newsletter at thebrainymoms.com. You can find us on every social media platform at the Brainy Moms. You can find Sandy on TikTok at the Brain TrainerLady. That is all that we have for you today. We hope that you feel a little bit smarter after spending this time with us. We’ll catch you next time.