Go Play! Part 2: Playful Homeschooling, Sensory Play, and Screens | Kate Allen Fox

About This Episode

Enjoying our conversations about play? Let’s talk about playful homeschooling, sensory play, and screens. Last week, early childhood educator Gennie Gorback helped us understand why child-led, open-ended play is so important for children’s learning, development, and joy. Today, we’re continuing that conversation with her co-author, Kate Allen Fox, who brings a homeschooling-family perspective and plenty of practical ideas for putting those principles into action at home. 

In Part 2 of our conversation about their book Go Play: How Parents Can Empower Kids to Build Their Own Worlds, co-author and homeschooling parent Kate Allen Fox explores what it can look like to prioritize play in real family life. For homeschooling parents especially, the pressure to choose the “right” curriculum, cover every subject, and make every moment educational can be overwhelming. Kate offers a refreshing reminder: play is not separate from learning—it is often the foundation for it.

Kate shares her own journey from feeling unsure how to engage and regulate her high-energy children to discovering the power of simple, open-ended play experiences. We discuss sensory play, nature play, messy creativity, big multi-day building projects, and practical strategies for making room for children’s interests without needing expensive toys or Pinterest-perfect setups. You’ll hear why a bin-within-a-bin, a cafeteria tray, cardboard boxes, sticks, water, and pantry basics may be all you need to get started.

We also have an honest, judgment-free conversation about screens. Kate encourages parents to consider the role screen time plays in their particular family, distinguish between active and passive use, and make intentional choices that support both children’s needs and parents’ well-being. Whether you homeschool, use another educational model, or simply want more joy and connection at home, this episode will help you notice what your child’s play may be telling you.

If you want practical homeschool support, playful learning ideas, and a calmer home rhythm, press play. Subscribe, share this with a homeschool friend, and leave a review so more parents can find the show.

About Kate Allen Fox

Kate Allen Fox is an award-winning author of lyrical picture books about science and nature. Her debut picture book, Pando, A Living Wonder of Trees, was named one of the best books of 2021 by School Library Journal, Pittsburgh Public Schools, and Chicago Public Library and a finalist for the SCBWI Crystal Kite Award. Her second picture book, A Few Beautiful Minutes: Experiencing a Solar Eclipse, received starred reviews from Publishers Weekly and Kirkus, as well as being named an NCTE Honor Book in the Language Arts, a Texas Topaz Nonfiction Gem, and a “Best Book of 2023” by Chicago Public Library.

In 2026, Kate published her first book for adults, Go Play: How Parents Can Empower Kids to Build Their Own Worlds (co-authored with Gennie Gorback). Her writing has also appeared in The New York Times  and McSweeney’s. When not writing, Kate can be found running, performing improv theatre, and homeschooling her two kids. Find her at https://kateallenfox.com/home.

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Read the transcript for this episode:

NOTE: This transcript was auto-generated by an AI assistant that thinks it’s smarter than we are. It’s not, but it has more free time than we do, so we gave it a low-stakes job. It probably spelled a few things wrong, but we’re okay with that. We’d rather spend our time interviewing cool guests!

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Dr. Amy Moore 0:00

Hi, Smart Moms and Dads. Welcome to another episode of the Brainy Moms Podcast brought to you today by Learning RX Brain Training Centers. I’m Dr. Amy Moore. I’m here with Sandy Zamalis. And before Sandy and I welcome our guests today, we want to remind you that we have a free monthly newsletter. All you have to do is go to theBrainymoms.com and sign up for really great tips for free. And now, our guest today is Kate Allen Fox. Let me tell you a little bit about her in case you don’t know who she is yet. Kate is an award-winning nonfiction and science author. She’s the co-author of the book Go Play: How Parents Can Empower Kids to Build Their Own Worlds. Kate lives in homeschools in Southern California.

Sandy Zamalis 0:46

So our goal is always to make you feel comfortable when you walk in our space. So that you feel you are part of our clan right out the gate.

Kate Allen Fox 0:58

I love that. Thank you. It’s so fun to be here. I feel like I’m part of a team. So thank you.

Dr. Amy Moore 1:04

Well, thanks for uh being flexible and not and being willing to do interviews separately. Oh, yes. As you can tell, can you imagine having this these two personalities with two guests?

Kate Allen Fox 1:17

And I will say, Jenny and I are not the least talkative people. So it could have been a lot.

Dr. Amy Moore 1:26

And we did interview the dumb dads together.

Kate Allen Fox 1:30

Oh.

Dr. Amy Moore 1:31

Mm-hmm.

Kate Allen Fox 1:32

That’s awesome.

Dr. Amy Moore 1:33

Because you can’t make fun of them separately because that would be mean. It’d be rude. Right. Right. Right. So we did interview them as a team. Um, but we typically don’t like to because then people are talking on top of each other and the editing is hard, and somebody gets their feelings hurt because they didn’t get to say what they wanted to say, and that’s usually, you know, totally understand.

Why Play Belongs In Homeschool

Dr. Amy Moore 1:59

Well, I love that you want to focus on on homeschool because this season is dedicated to supporting homeschooling families. Right. And um, you know, we go to all the homeschooling conferences, we interact with so many families, and the focus always seems to be on, well, which curriculum do I need? And how do I know if I’m covering everything? What do I do? How would I know if if my child’s falling behind? Uh, he’s struggling to read. All of the things that come with questioning how am I doing as a homeschooling parent, and how is my child doing as a homeschooling student, that I don’t think play ever comes into the conversation.

Speaker 3 2:41

Right.

Dr. Amy Moore 2:42

So I would love for you to talk about why it should.

Kate Allen Fox 2:45

That is such a great question. And I’m a homeschooling parent. I’ve been homeschooling since my eldest was in pre-K, which happened to be 2020. Um, and so I’ve been through all the things homeschool parents listening have been through. And that includes the self-doubt you’re talking about. Because I think when we are homeschooling and we’re taking responsibility for our children’s educations, there’s this questioning that happens to many of us of am I doing enough? Am I academic enough? I know I do it. Um, and if you’re in homeschooling groups, you’ll see people say, Oh, we’re gonna homeschool, my kid is three, my kid is four. What curriculum should I buy? And I know that question comes from such a beautiful, loving place. Uh I might offer that for especially a child that young, it might be slightly the wrong question, right? Because what the question is as a homeschooling parent or any parent, but we take on more responsibility for education in the homeschooling world, the question is how do I get my child what they need? And our supposition in the our book, Go Play, is that what your child needs, especially in those younger years, is play, free play, um, which I know Jenny talked to you a bit about defining free play and that it’s child-led and child chosen. Um, so especially in those early years, a lot of the academic skills are being built through play. Whether that’s the motor skills to write later, because you’re squeezing play-doh or you’re digging in the dirt, or whether that is learning to count by moving a board game piece around, you know, when we’re rolling the die. Or one thing we talk about in the book is these dispositions of learning, which is a term that came from one of our interviewees, Debbie Lawrence, um, where she talks about the idea that before you learn, you need these dispositions like growth mindset, emotional regulation. You can’t learn um if you don’t have the emotional skills to learn. And play is great for building all those things. So that’s focusing really on the early years, but play can continue and I would argue should continue to be a part of the homeschooling lifestyle kind of forever, um, because it’s first of all beautiful and joyful, but it does reinforce academic skills even as kids get older and um have more academic demands.

Sandy Zamalis 5:05

Yeah,

Unschooling Questions And Finding Balance

Sandy Zamalis 5:06

I feel like the unschooling movement tries to drive at this or balance it out a little bit. But um, but I know there’s some, you know, philosophical things that we could kind of wrestle with in terms of true unschooling uh completely, uh, versus that balance of making sure we incorporate play and include that academic reach if we’re trying to if our kids are definitely wired that way and we want to make sure they can read, write, and learn with ease. So, where do you kind of stand in that kind of philosophical battle?

Kate Allen Fox 5:41

I’m not an unschooler. I have read books about unschooling and I am interested in the movement and the philosophy. And we interviewed Dr. Peter Gray, who I’m sure Ginny talked about at length, and he has done a forward-sone book about unschooling. It certainly couples fairly nicely with a play-based mindset. I am not an unschooler. I do use formal curriculum because I feel like that’s what’s right for my family. I think, and we don’t get into homeschooling in depth in the book because that’s not the focus of the book, but my particular take is that no matter what type of homeschool you ascribe to, play is important partially because you have so much time with your kids. And I don’t know of many homeschoolers who are doing six to eight hours a day of academics just because that does not make sense, right? Um, and so there is a lot of time in the day. And there’s a lot of time to build towards their own interests, no matter their age. And so that’s a beautiful thing about homeschool, is that there is all this time. And then the question becomes well, how do we direct that time? And we we suggest that play and play changes as children get older, but that play should be a big part of that conversation for the reasons of academic development, emotional development, and just joy. Play makes kids happy and helps them connect to other kids, which is something we’re all interested in, whether we homeschool or happy homeschool.

Sandy Zamalis 7:08

One of the things that I think intrigues me in the book for you is the, and even when we talked to Jenny, was that this was something that you struggled with. Like you actually were seeking some help in this area. And so I think our listeners would really love to hear what that struggle was for you and how you kind of incorporated some of this to kind of get on. You’re in the space now of, you know, incorporating play, but um, you were were struggling at the beginning. And so a lot of parents I think would totally relate to that.

When A Parent Feels Stuck

Kate Allen Fox 7:39

Okay, that’s a great question. And I do definitely come to this book as feeling like a stand-in for our reader. I I feel like I’m a well-meaning, reasonably well-educated parent. I worked at um CDC for almost a decade. I I not a scientist, but I don’t have I didn’t have a child development background when I got into parenting or when I got into homeschooling. And so I had I have two sons and they are high-energy kids. And there was a lot of time where I felt like I wasn’t quite sure how to engage them in things that would hold their interest or help them regulate. I didn’t know about sensory bins or uh, you know, uh how a little vinegar and um baking soda plate is really calming for kids of all ages. And so I would get into these times in my day, especially because I started homeschooling during the pandemic when there were fewer things. So we were just home and I’m home with these two kids. My kids, my boys were, let’s see, um four and one, three and one, uh around there. Um my my younger one turned two early in the pandemic. So I had young kids, and I was at a loss. Like, do I just throw them on screens? Like, my older son really liked a lot of screen-based play and other things, and that, you know, obviously can work, but I also felt like I wasn’t giving them entirely what they needed. And that’s when I started connecting with Ginny. And I learned a lot more about invitations to play, how simple play setups can um engage kids. And many of your listeners may already know a lot more than I did when I started. But one of the things that was such a relief to me was that I could put out vinegar and baking soda and some pie pads, and my kids would just sit down and engage with that. And even now, um, my older son, I’m sorry, my younger son is now eight. And we, I forget when it was, but we had had a a week where we were on screens more. It happened sometimes, and he was a little um a little dysregulated, you might say, not terribly, but it I decided to pull out like the baking soda and the vinegar, and I he was playing with it and he said, I feel my attention span coming back. Like he was calming, like it was bringing him back to the place he needed to be. And I felt much I now feel much more able to give them what they need, but also feel like sturdier in my parenting decisions. You know, I still allow screen-based play and those kinds of things, but I understand when and why I’m doing it rather than using it as a Hail Mary because we’re stuck at home in the pandemic. So it’s been a big evolution for me. I’m certainly not perfect, but I do always try to prioritize my kids’ play. Like we always go to our homeschool group’s park day, and my kids play for three, sometimes more hours just with other kids in a child-led way. And I think that is precious that they have that time every week to do that. And I’m not sure I would have valued those things in the same way if I didn’t have this knowledge.

Screen Time Without The Shame

Dr. Amy Moore 10:50

So I think you probably piqued our listeners’ interest there towards the end of that, um, where you said you do allow screen-based play. So let’s talk about what that is, what that looks like, what your recommendations are based on your research for this book.

Kate Allen Fox 11:09

Absolutely. So we do have a chapter in the book about screens. And we did try to approach this in a realistic, judgment-free way because it’s such a fraught and emotionally fraught issue. Um, and I think a lot of parents, especially moms, um, have some level of guilt around screens. Um, not everyone, but I’m just saying it is a common issue. Um, so in the book, what we try to do is create a way for our readers to look at screen time and what roles it’s playing in their family and what they want to look it to look like going forward. We mentioned the AAP recommendations of two hours a day for kids a certain age. And we we also talked to um, you know, different experts. But really what we wanted was to help parents think about what makes sense for their families. And um, so we talk about the difference, for instance, between active screen time where the child is actively doing something, say in building something in Minecraft or playing chess or something like that, and passive screen time where they are not actively doing anything. So you might think, you know, watching a TV show or something like that might be an example of passive screen time. Now, that’s not to say all passive screen time is bad, but just is one way to view screen time. What is this doing for your child? Um, and we talk about different roles it can play in a family. It might be that um, like Ginny, I don’t I think she to touched on this when you talked to her, but her kids like to have an episode of Bluey to decompress, and that is filling a role in her family that she thinks is important and worth it. So we talk a lot about these kinds of decisions. Okay, think about what screen time is doing for you. Um, what do you want it to be doing for you? Is it active? Is it passive? What is your kid getting out of it? And sometimes what are you getting out of it? For instance, is your spouse always like overstimulated and they need the kids to be quiet for 30 minutes or you know, they’re gonna lose it? You know, like it doesn’t have to just be the kids that are gaining something from the screen time for it to matter. It’s it’s for the family. So, and I think the other thing to note is that play experts are not of one mind on this any more than anybody else is. You know, you will talk to some play experts who are really anti-screen, and we have some um suggestions in there about here are some things you can try. You know, it’s say if you’re um you’re using the screen time because you need to cook dinner, here are some ways maybe you can invite your kid to play with the pots and pans, if that works for you, if that’s something you want to try. But we also talked to other play experts who talk about some screen time as an active form of play. For instance, if your child is playing Minecraft, that’s a form of play that has the same emotional and cognitive benefits as other forms of play, maybe not the same motor skills, but it has benefits of play. Um and for instance, if your child is uh connecting with other kids, now obviously if the game has communication features, that’s a whole other safety issue. But say hypothetically, your kid is talking to another kid they know when playing the game, then there’s a social aspect to the play. So I guess the long-winded answer to that question is it really depends, but there are lots of ways that you can get curious about the screen time and examine it in a different way so that you feel comfortable with the decisions you’re making.

Dr. Amy Moore 14:43

I like that approach. Um, I think number one, you don’t alienate your reader, right? Because you’re showing, hey, this is just a different way to approach how you’re using screens in your family. And I love that you say that it doesn’t always just have to be about the child’s benefit, because then I think that reduces some shame and and guilt that some parents have. I mean, my oldest is 27 and the baby Einstein videos had just come out when he was a baby. And um that’s the only way I could get a shower is to put him in his bouncy something, don’t remember super saucer, put him in a super saucer in front of the baby Einstein videos while I could jump through a quick shower. And so while I was one of those parents who said my children will never be on screens, I realized some of us need to take a shower.

Kate Allen Fox 15:39

Right. And I assume your 27-year-old, you know, is okay. Um he’s fine. And I think he can still say konichi wa. No, it worked. Um, but yeah, it’s it’s it’s I think easy in the moment we’re in in parenting to have so many shoulds or well-meaning advice that it becomes really hard to operate sometimes because the ideal is great, but it’s not always possible or maybe um best for everyone in the family. And so I think a lot of moms, and I say moms because that’s the perspective I’m coming from, but a lot of parents put a perfectionist pressure on themselves. That’s certainly true for me. Um, and I know a lot of other parents who struggle with it as well. And we didn’t want this book to add to that, but rather to help parents think about things maybe in a different way that helped them come to the right conclusions for them because it is different for every family. It really is. And my kids really like some video games, and I’m okay with that. We have a Switch. Um, we like nights where we play um Mario Kart together and we talk, and it’s like a social thing and it’s fun. And I have really no guilt about playing Mario Kart with my kids just because that play happens on a screen rather than a board game. I I think the other thing is just like screen time is so broad, right? It’s so many different things. And one type of screen time is one type of screen time. Every game is different from every game, every show is different from a different show. And so, like these hard and fast rules I think can sometimes it induce more anxiety than health because it is so nuanced. And most parents are doing a really good job and they’re trying hard, especially if they’re worrying about screen time. And so we want to help them out, not add to the the guilt.

Sandy Zamalis 17:44

Right. And it’s a balance, right? Because every child is unique. So there are some kids who can’t handle more than maybe a couple of hours without getting overstimulated, and there are others that could watch it all day and like, you know, not have a problem at all and have a great day the next day and not, you know, be that dopamine dependent on it. Um, it’s fascinating, just even when I think generationally kind of, you know, like I was definitely a Gen X kid. My parents both worked. I lived in front of the television until my parents got home from work. Saturday morning cartoons, you could not move me from the television until I’ve seen the whole run. Um, but as technology is advanced and all of these things have just become at our fingertips. I understand why there’s like a need, I think, right now, generationally, for parents to try to get a hold of it somehow because it’s inundating. But it’s everywhere, all the time. Everything, if I want to watch Blue E right now, I can. Versus, you know, when I was a kid, if there was a show you wanted to watch, you had to wait till that day, that time, there was no reruns and you wanted to catch that episode. So it’s a it’s a true battle, and I understand like where you’re coming from. We got to have a balance and we have to be willing to have this conversation because there’s a cultural conversation too. You know, our kids, if we want them to have relationships and friends, they they uh need to have some pieces of the culture in their life too, so that they can find like-minded individuals and have these conversations.

Kate Allen Fox 19:18

It’s such a good point you’re making that a lot of the natural limits on devices have disappeared and there are no natural limits anymore. And so those limits fall to the parent, the primary caregiver, to create and enforce. And that’s actually a really big burden because it happens every day, right? And um kids will test limits. And so, yes, it it’s it is very hard and it is important to think about. And so I think you’re very right that parents today do have to be more mindful because there are no natural limits on screen time anymore. It’s constantly available. And so it’s unfortunate that we have to think about this and enforce it and be the limits that are no longer naturally in place.

Sandy Zamalis 20:09

I mean, we literally grew up and the TV would turn off. It would just be bars. Well, the the national anthem would play. Yeah. Whereas now 24-7. It’s it’s crazy when I think about it. Because, you know, having grown up through all of it, it’s just fascinating. And I don’t know that when I was um homeschooling my kids that I worried so much about screens. Um, I just because I grew up with screens, and so um, you know, I shared my love of movies with my kids. I we talked about, you know, lots of different things and used lots of different medium. I loved video games as a kid, so like I was happy to play video games um when my kids were old enough, and we can incorporate that until it got beyond me, and then I couldn’t keep up anymore.

Kate Allen Fox 20:59

But I cannot get my kids at anything, so no.

Dr. Amy Moore 21:04

Well, we played Mario Kart with our kids too. I was always baby peach. Um right? Um, not regular peach, baby peach. Um so I I think that there are great ways to build connection with your kids um through technology. I think that’s just the that’s just the tool, right? Whether, like you said, whether it’s a board game or books or you’re watching a movie or you’re playing a video game or you’re bowling or you’re, you know, playing tennis, it’s it’s just the vehicle through which to grow that connection. And so as long as we remain um intentional um about those choices. And, you know, I get a lot of pushback um over my views on technology because I I do feel like we can loosen the reins if we have some oversight. Absolutely. That it is a way to increase connection, especially in teenagers and their friends. And so um I think it’s okay as long as we have some oversight.

Kate Allen Fox 22:10

Yeah. And I love that you’re emphasizing connection for a few reasons. First, I think play is the means of connection, no matter how what you’re playing through, whether you’re being playful in your conversation or in your video game or like play is just a powerful connective force within a family or between friends. And then I think as homeschoolers, connection is so important because it’s the heart of homeschooling is that relationship between the parent and child. And the warmer and more connected that relationship is, I think the more effective your homeschool is, as well as all your parenting. I mean, homeschool, in my view, is an extension of parenting.

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Why Parents Need Play Help Now

Sandy Zamalis 24:01

Moms. So why this book now?

Kate Allen Fox 24:04

That’s a great question. So this book I think is very timely in that a lot of people are asking these questions and wondering, what do I do with my kids? And I mean, you see the stats that you know, caregivers today spend more time, you know, if they’re working than they did in the 1970s if they were at home. And so we do have all this time with kids, more so than previous generations. Kids do not just go out on the street and play in most places. That’s not the culture in the US anymore. And so parents are left with yet another burden, which maybe some generations in the past didn’t have, which is to create the environment for play. And a lot of us, me included, did not get the memo on that or like had no idea where to start. And so as the sidewalk play decreases, which I’m very sad about, and we do talk a bit in the book about how you can try to um foster cultural play in your neighborhood or on your street, because that is important too. But if we’re fighting all these cultural forces that take away play and yet the need for play is just as great as it ever was, then we need to help parents number one understand that that is important so they can prioritize it. Whether that means that they’re creating invitations to play in their home and they’re creating the home environment to be more playful, or they’re creating those opportunities elsewhere, say through an after-school program, or by maybe emphasizing that kids have some downtime, maybe in addition to extracurriculars, but creating that space has become harder to do. And so again, that word intentional. Um parents have to be more intentional now than ever to create the room and the environment for play.

Sensory Play For Regulation And Joy

Sandy Zamalis 26:00

I love you talked about it a little bit earlier when you were talking about, you know, your vinegar and baking soda and kind of highlighted the need for sensory play. Let’s dig into that a little bit because um we’ve already established there’s lots of different types of play. Why is sensory play so important?

Kate Allen Fox 26:22

Well, sensory play has so many benefits. Um, and there are different types, you know. All play could, in one sense or another, be considered sensory because it engages the sensors, but we’re talking about things like slime and play-doh and baking soda and vinegar. And sensory play, especially for younger kids, has great benefits. It develops motor skills if they’re needing something hard. It can be calming. It often is very calming. It helps with emotional regulation. It can have all sorts of benefits for kids, especially in that emotional realm. It’s also very open-ended. For instance, I have a kid who got it from me who is had a lot of trouble with like perfectionism, we’ll say. Um, if something didn’t go right or they lost, that was a problem, we’ll say. Uh, you know, a big meltdown, really upset. And so for younger kids, sensory play is so obviously there’s no goal, right? You’re you are out there, you are touching it and smelling it because it feels good and it smells good. And um, you know, it it feels weird, maybe, and that’s interesting. And so there’s this very innate joy, I think, in sensory play. And some kids take to sensory play and they love it, you know. And there are other forms of sensory play as well, including moving your body through space. For instance, if your kid keeps jumping into the couch over and over again and they are trying to get the sensation of falling, that is also sensory play. And so kids will engage in sensory play in a lot of different ways. I know you had the homeschool OT on um recently, and I love that because there is so many like uh benefits for especially neurodivergent learners, and many of us in the homeschool community have neurodivergent learners. And so you can start, if you start applying that lens of sensory play, you can start seeing what is my kid seeking? And again, how can we meet that need? One thing we talk about in the book is the idea, it’s almost like a hunger, right? If your kids are hungry, they’re gonna find food, right? But if you can engage the sensory play in a uh thoughtful way, that’s more like serving a meal rather than your kids like pulling Oreos out of the pantry, right? Because they are so hungry. Um, and so sensory play is just so beautiful and it’s broad. I mean, the one caveat is some kids are also sensory avoidant, and you can be very sensitive to that, especially um neurodivergent kids may have sensory avoidance um preferences. And we did talk to a play therapist in the book whose name is Amy Nelson, brilliant, and she gave us so much great insight because we wanted to talk specifically about the issue of neurodivergence, including in sensory play. So, for some kids, the idea of touching slime is like terrifying. Like people stop terrifying. So she talks a lot. You know, you can give them gloves, you can give them a knife to touch it, and you should also give them control, like a safe word to stop, because it they need to be in control to enjoy it. If they aren’t enjoying it and they’re scared, they aren’t getting any benefits of plague, you’re just forcing them to touch something that scares them. Um, and you know, touching slime today isn’t like necessary for daily living. So that’s the also the caveat. But my older son was sensory avoidant. Um, and that was something that I worked on with him um through OT and other um avenues and on our own. And you know, slowly he he he learned to be more confident, we’ll say, around different sensations. And it it was a really good thing for him as well. So I know that you probably uh talked to the homeschool OT a lot more in depth about all of that, but I am a big fan of sensory play. And it was one of those areas where you mentioned Sandy uh that Jenny said that I struggled with. And that was that was one where I was like, I like had a moment, I was like, has everyone just been rushing home to make sensory bins? And I missed a thing, and now my kid can’t touch anything. Like I was like full-on, just uh hard on myself about that situation. And I was like, and then eventually I was like, it’s okay, you know, we’re we’re here now, and now I know what a sensory pen is, and uh it’s great because not only is it helping my kid with his sensory sensitivities, but it’s also like calming and it’s also all these other benefits like motor skills. So it’s a beautiful thing.

Dr. Amy Moore 31:05

Yeah, I have a section in my book um on you know, using our senses to ground ourselves and and to regulate. And you don’t even have to have out of the out of the way materials, right? You can turn the faucet on and simply run water over your hands and experience that. You can hold an ice cube and watch it melt. I mean, it’s um it doesn’t have to be, you don’t have to go out and buy an expensive sensory table to put your slime in, right?

Kate Allen Fox 31:36

Yeah. Go out and play in the read, play in a creek, right? Mm-hmm. We have a chapter on nature play, and we do get into that a bit there. And just like even just naming this, you know, what you see, what you hear, what you feel in nature doubles as mindfulness and calming. And what a beautiful reminder. We do emphasize a lot in the book that we don’t want people buying things that are expensive. We have this table that’s like the top 10 toys, and it’s like sticks, pine cones, water, because boxes. Exactly. Um, because you don’t need to go out and spend a bunch of money and a lot of sensory play in particular. Um it you can do a lot of found materials or pantry items. And Jenny has a great graphic in the book of showing a well-stocked sensory pantry, just like basics to have on hand uh that make it easier to throw something together. But as you’re saying, Dr. Amy, there are all sorts of sensory opportunities around us at any moment.

Dr. Amy Moore 32:35

You know, we had this guidance. Um I would, you know, talk to early childhood teachers and say, you know, we don’t want to use food for art with young children because we don’t want them confused about whether this is food or art. Um, but once we get past the toddler years, that is very easy to explain, right? We’re using this to create something. Now your germs are on it. So we probably don’t want to eat that, right? But they can still differentiate um shaving cream from whipped cream at age four or five.

Kate Allen Fox 33:09

Yeah. Certainly if your child’s very young, you want to use taste safe and um, you know, obviously no choking hazards. But yeah, a lot of great food items, like flour, is a lovely sensation that you can use as a sensory experiment. It’s messy, so probably do it outside. But, you know, we do talk a lot about controlling the mess. I do think that is a big roadblock for some parents about the mess of play. And so we do have a lot of strategies in the book about how to make peace with the mess and also like manage it in a way that doesn’t destroy your house because you know, you you live here too, and you don’t have to have it look terrible for the sake of your children or be vacuuming up flour for days. So that’s a real issue too, especially with sensory play. It can’t be very messy.

Mess Management And Honoring Creations

Dr. Amy Moore 34:01

What is your number one tip for managing that tension?

Kate Allen Fox 34:06

For me, I live in California, so outside is great. Um, and one very easy tip is put it as far away from the door as you can outside, like the back corner of the backyard if you have an outside space. That way, by the time they walk in, most of it is falling off. Um, also a very easy thing is like I let my kids not wear like a lot of clothes if they’re doing something messy, like not full on naked, but they don’t need to be wearing a shirt from my family. Your family might be different. Um, so that is one thing. And then Jenny has this great strategy, which we have an illustration of the of in the book, but it’s called the bin and bin strategy. So basically, like if you have a bin, then you have a slightly bigger bin for the overflow, and that can really help contain a lot of messes. So they’re pretty simple um uh switches, but if you haven’t thought about it, it can be helpful.

Dr. Amy Moore 35:02

Yeah, I love the bin within a bin.

Kate Allen Fox 35:05

Yes. Jenny was really great about um we were able to have an artist do some spot illustrations in the book to demonstrate some of the things that are a little harder to just describe with words, and it it really adds a lovely, playful element to the book too. So I’m so glad she she thought of that. But we have one on sensory bins at the sensory pantry and the bin and bin routine. So um you can like one thing I do in my house is I got those um, they’re like cafeteria trays. Like if you’re walking through the cafeteria and you’re putting plates on your tray, I have a bunch of those that I just got online for cheap. And those I use for everything. My kids like Lego a lot. Lego’s big in our house, and if they’re building something, it doesn’t always get done in a single play session. And I don’t like just having Lego stream that I can’t move because they’re supposed to be together in the middle of my living room. That’s not me. I don’t like it. So um my kids know that if they’re building something, unless it’s really big, it needs to be on a cafeteria tray. And that also helps them because they can like take it to a different room or something without destroying what they’re building. I also use those for a lot of sensory play if it’s not too deep. Um, I put all art, I’ll throw all the art like paint on those. I use them for everything. They are now covered in paint and all sorts of things, but it was an easy swap that has really helped me like feel like in control of the various aspects of the mess.

Dr. Amy Moore 36:31

Well, I love that you mentioned um if they’re not finished with their Lego creation, for example, they can just pick it up and move it. I I think one of the um saddest things that we can do is make our kids clean up because it’s time to clean up when they’re in the middle of creating something. And so to have a compromise between not having Legos in the middle of your living room unattended because they hurt to step on too. Um and still honoring that child’s work. It’s saying, look, I see the work that you have put into this, and I’m gonna honor that by saying, okay, we need to stop, just put that up on the shelf for now, and you can come back to it after we’ve done math.

Kate Allen Fox 37:22

Yeah, absolutely. And the multi-day projects can have really great benefits for kids. Like one thing we did um in my house that was not a queen at it up was we did um cardboard, um, a cardboard, it’s called like the great cardboard project. I’m getting the name wrong, but anyway, the idea is you um there’s a video online of a kid who made a whole arcade out of cardboard. And so you can share this video with your kid and they can inspire it. So one thing I got all these cardboard boxes collected, and I said, all right, this week is summer. This is gonna be our summer homeschooling this week. You can build anything you want out of cardboard. We have tons of boxes. Um, and so what they decided, they’re very into Minecraft at this time, was they decided to build a Minecraft amusement park with rides and stuff. And so they took the boxes and they were painting and them, and just for that week, I just went into it with the decision, okay, the living room for this week is dedicated to the cardboard project because I think this is cool, and they get to see that they can build something really big, which is awesome, and they get to paint it and they get to plan the project and stay with it. And maybe it’s not like they were like project managers, but there is like a benefit to staying with something, um, having a large-scale creation that they know isn’t going to get torn down so they can get invested in it. And so yeah, I love that you brought up like honoring the effort that went into the child’s creation because that is so important. And often with our kids and their play, they’re doing something that’s really important to them. And we may not immediately see why or immediately see the value, but to them, if they spend a lot of time on it, just like anything I spend a lot of time on, it meant something to me. And so recognizing that too, because I do ask my kids to clean up sometimes, or if I can tell, hey, this has been out for a week now, I don’t think you’re really into it anymore. It’s okay to give this the hee-po. But really I love that you asked that question that way, that Dr. Amy, because it it is about honoring, I think, the child’s play and their efforts. And when you dismiss it, which can be easy to do sometimes because life happens and we have other things we’re thinking about, it can send this message like maybe it doesn’t make sense to start playing because I’m just gonna have to, you know, get rid of it before too long. And so that’s a really beautiful way to think about it.

Dr. Amy Moore 39:54

Well, and we can always take a photo of it before we tear it down, right? So that we have this photo album of all of our really cool Lego creations or block creations or cardboard creations that, you know, once the actual structure has to get put away, we have a permanent record of it that we can go back and revisit anytime we want.

Kate Allen Fox 40:15

Yeah. Absolutely. And I love that with magnetiles too. Magnetiles were a big hit in my house. My kids have kind of aged out of that phase, I think, at this point. But they would build things and we can take a picture of it, and then those magnetiles can get repurposed because those are not cheap. So we don’t have, you know, endless supply of magnetiles. Um, so being able to, that’s a great tip. Just take a picture of it, and then either it can get cleaned up or reuse for a new play project because we don’t always have infinite material either.

Sandy Zamalis 40:44

Right. I love the idea. It’s funny because um I grew up, my parents were military, and so like I did not have a home when I was growing up where I was allowed to make a mess. And so for me, it was a head shift when I became a parent that I was just gonna let my kids make messes. Like I really just had this idea, this is a small little window of time. Kids are messy. Um, I’m not gonna buy fancy furniture, you know, and then that’s not everybody, but that’s just where my brain was. I was like, we’re gonna have fun. I’m not gonna prioritize the carpet over my kids’, you know, uh creative whatever. So um I I remember my son um and his friend built this huge Kinex um like roller coaster that they had gotten at like a homeschool conference. And that thing lived in because they’re so big that they don’t fit on a table, right? They they it lived in the living room for a very long time. But like I think generationally, I think of all the trains uh enthusiasts out there who build these gigantic models. Like, how much do you learn from building all these models and creating the space where you get to make something big? Like you said, that just shows like that project management side of it, um, especially if they’re doing it cooperatively with their siblings or friends.

Dr. Amy Moore 42:08

Well, that’s executive function too, right? Like you’re planning it and you’re executing it, and then you’re managing all of the variables along the way.

unknown 42:16

Yeah.

Kate Allen Fox 42:17

Yeah, that reminded me. So my husband was homeschooled um as a child in the 80s before it was quite so popular. And I met him when I was 23 and he was 29, and we lived in Georgia, and his family lived in Arizona. At some point, I flew out to meet his family in Arizona, and he really wanted to show me this Lego thing that he had made as a teenager studying Latin. It was a full-blown, I guess, like um replica of the Coliseum, and he just couldn’t believe it’s not getting to Abbott anymore. And I was like, Jared, you’re 29. But I guess it had stayed for a number of years in the house. Um, but it just reminded me like people like get very invested in what they create and what they build, and it can be like a very big, cool project. And for the record, my husband still does like Lego. So I guess then, you know, maybe that was foreshadowing there that we were gonna have a Lego collection in our house later. Um, but yeah, it’s uh it is really cool that you took that perspective, Sandy, of just like this is a short window. I think that’s one thing. If I could do my boys’ littlest years again, that I would have taken that perspective more. I think I don’t, you know, everyone tells you it goes so fast, but when you’re at the beginning, it’s hard to believe in a way. Um and um I do think you had a really good perspective there, Sandy, because especially with the messy play and the like chaotic play, it’s not that many years. And it is really important. And you I’m sure your kids have wonderful memories of the stuff they did. And um, yeah, I love that perspective and I I think it’s an important thing for you know your listeners to hear.

Dr. Amy Moore 44:03

Yeah. Yeah. We were the same way. We decided we were gonna live in our house. So there was not a showroom. Right. There was no formal living room, formal living space. We were gonna live in our house. We have three boys. And so you can’t contain creativity. Three boys. I mean we were fortunate that we always had a playroom. Um and you know, we could contain a lot of it, and they were allowed to have at it, right, in the playroom as long as they didn’t leave Legos on the carpet for mom to step on. That is a good rule. I am convinced that the pain closest to childbirth is stepping on a Lego barefoot.

Kate Allen Fox 44:45

Truly, truly. Now it’s it’s funny you mentioned that because I was more like that one, like more like um wanting to pick everything up all the time when my kids were really little. And one day my husband, he looked at me and he’s like, You’re like Sisyphus. You’re just keep rolling that boulder up the hill for it to roll back down. And um like, that’s true. I I agree. Um but my like little neat freak side really wants things picked up. But I did eventually like relax because you’re right, it’s it’s not worth wasting the energy or mental effort on um especially it’s a it’s it you can reframe it as what a beautiful experience is being had here. You know, you can look at that mess with a different sort of perspective or lens that of the joy that it created rather than the thing that you need to do, you know.

Final Takeaways And Where To Find Kate

Dr. Amy Moore 45:45

Kate, what do you want to leave with our listeners that you haven’t gotten to say or that you want to elaborate on?

Kate Allen Fox 45:51

Wow, this has been a fast and fun conversation. I I guess I want to just leave on a very joyful note that our kids, and especially when we’re with them all the time, their play is uh telling us what they love and what makes them happy. And I think for all parents, in particular for homeschoolers, where maybe we got into this because we want to let our kids explore interests and have a tailored life, that play is really the thing that will tell you more about how your kid wants to connect with you, what brings them joy, what maybe even they want to do with their lives than anything else. And that if we get curious about that and we start seeing the value in it, it opens up all sorts of doors in our family life to create these magical moments and memories that you guys are talking about. So I really appreciate you guys letting me come on here and talk about this and the really insightful questions. This has been fun.

Dr. Amy Moore 46:58

We’ve enjoyed having you. Thanks so much for taking time out of your day to bless our listeners with your insights and your experience. And um, these are a couple of these topics we have never addressed in the show in our six seasons. So um that’s exciting to have a new perspective on some things. So we love that. Um, so Kate Allen Fox, thank you so much for being with us. How can our listeners find you and find more from you?

Kate Allen Fox 47:26

Um, so my website um that covers all my books, um, which are mostly children’s books, and this one is kateallenfox.com. And then we also have a specific website for this book, which is called go playthebook.com. So I hope to hear from some of your listeners. This has been great.

Dr. Amy Moore 47:46

Awesome. Um, well, speaking of websites and social media, um, if you want more from us, you can find us on social media at the Brainy Moms. Uh, if you would like to sign up for a free newsletter, you can go to theBrainymoms.com and you can find Sandy on TikTok at the Brain Trainer Lady. So look, we love it that you choose to spend an hour with us every week. That is all the smart stuff we have for you today. We hope you feel a little bit smarter after hearing this episode. We’ll catch you next time.